[R] tidying up

[Stephen H. Dawson, DSL]

Hi Avi,


I thought about your question over the past few days. A new email list 
may help, but I doubt the help will suffice to solve the problem of 
forming emails as the existing list prefers.

Here is where I see the source of the problem with using R by way of 
getting questions answers.

https://cran.r-project.org/doc/manuals/r-release/R-intro.html

This writing is not an introductory learning piece. This work needs to 
be restructured and expanded. It is evident another author would need to 
be found who has the writing skills to accomplish the necessary 
improvements.


*Stephen Dawson, DSL*
/Executive Strategy Consultant/
Business & Technology
+1 (865) 804-3454
http://www.shdawson.com


On 2/27/22 16:59, Avi Gross via R-help wrote:
> Indeed, Jim, the hopeful purpose of interactions here is to help people without doing the job for them. As you note, sometimes it is help in getting them to formulate what they are trying to do and maybe see the resolution on their own, or give enough info that others can troubleshoot.
>
> I have dealt with people on and off forums like this who know very little and have done some rudimentary search and found something they hope is helpful and then get stuck. Some have no actual interest in learning R or Python or anything and see it as a one-time thing. For them, any sustained interaction is just frustrating. Others may want a tutor, albeit mahy of us here are not willing or able to provide endless hours to volunteer. And some, may be better off spending the money to hire someone and I assume there are places they can be directed.
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jim Lemon <drjimlemon using gmail.com>
> To: Avi Gross <avigross using verizon.net>
> Cc: r-help using r-project.org <r-help using r-project.org>
> Sent: Sun, Feb 27, 2022 4:52 pm
> Subject: Re: [R] tidying up
>
>
> Hi Avi,
> I just sent in an answer to a very simple question. In many cases it
> seems to me that the real problem isn't apparent from the request.
> ektaraK appears to have almost no experience with R (sorry if I'm
> wrong). A person in this position may sort of know what they want to
> do but do not know how to ask the question. What's a reproducible
> example? So I often submit really dumb looking answers that show the
> person how to ask the question. If I'm successful, the OP learns how
> to do some basic operation, but also learns how to ask the next
> question. Until they get there, most responses just give them a typing
> exercise.
>
> Jim
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 28, 2022 at 6:35 AM Avi Gross via R-help
> <r-help using r-project.org> wrote:
>> This mailing list seems to steadily get messages that some see as not relevant to this forum. In particular, some see it as wrong to bring up some things here and keep reminding people of some ground rules.
>>
>> So I want to know, briefly, if it is reasonable to ask a person with a question or problem to reproduce their problem another way. If using RSTUDIO or one of many IDE, can they run the code on a naked R interpreter by sourcing the file or copying it in or typing it anew, or perhaps using IDLE which comes by default with many installations of R? If using a library (which I like so I am not really in agreement about the unsuitability) like the tidyverse which is free and available to all even if loosely associated with the RSTUDIO folks and that can be run on any version of R that I am aware of, then some questions may still be fair if they are really about more general R issues as much of the rest of the code may be base R and may be the cause of whatever issue is being reported. And, some simple requests like pointing out a missing comma, ...
>>
>> I have stated my thought before and it boils down to the reality that there are some things about earlier versions of R that were far from perfect or complete and a little healthy competition is not a bad thing and may help base R evolve. Not everything in the tidyverse is better and it keeps evolving and deprecating older features, but it cannot really be ignored any longer. If you apply for a job at some company as something of an R expert, you may well be asked by all kinds of people about their programs that use the tidyverse for help or to help them solve a problem. You don't have to like it, but if you cannot read it, you no longer are really qualified in many places.
>>
>> Ask yourself if a language like R was created from scratch, what graphics might be built into the base distribution? Would you rather have lattice or ggplot or perhaps both as well as base R graphics? Would you make many of the built-in functions more consistent, so for instance, the data being worked on would be the first argument whenever possible?
>>
>> One reason there are so many packages is not so much due to the superiority of R but because people find it lacks quite a bit. Much of that should not be included, of course, if R is meant to be somewhat on the lean side, and yes, packages are a deliberate way to extend it when needed. But when people use it and think they are programming in R, ...
>>
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> ______________________________________________
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>