I think you can do this very efficiently with AD Model Builder's random effects module. The software is now freely available at http://admb-project.org If you want, you can contact me directly to discuss the model. Dave -- David A. Fournier P.O. Box 2040, Sidney, B.C. V8l 3S3 Canada Phone/FAX 250-655-3364 http://otter-rsch.com