[R-wiki] Summary of the discussion before creation of R-sig-wiki

[Gabor Grothendieck]

One other item.  A new version of MediaWiki was released today.
Apparently there are some changes in the installer.

http://sourceforge.net/project/shownotes.php?release_id=386609

On 1/19/06, Gabor Grothendieck <ggrothendieck at gmail.com> wrote:
> Not sure if you can assess this but the other item is the
> roadmap, activity and community since its not just where
> the wiki is now but where it will be as time goes on.
>
> On 1/19/06, Philippe Grosjean <phgrosjean at sciviews.org> wrote:
> > Jonathan Baron wrote:
> > > On 01/18/06 11:33, Gabor Grothendieck wrote:
> > >
> > >>Not sure if this changes anything but the version 4.0 beta of twiki claims
> > >>that it has "much simpler" installation:
> > >>
> > >>http://freshmeat.net/projects/twiki/?branch_id=46424&release_id=217318
> > >
> > >
> > > I believe that this was the version I installed.  I can help
> > > anyone who wants to try it.  But if this is "simpler" I hate to
> > > see what it was before.  Really it IS simple, but there are just
> > > a few minor things that they don't tell you.  Like once it is
> > > actually alive, you do everything through TWiki itself.  The
> > > configuration page is just like any other page, and you edit it.
> > > Neat idea.  If they only told you!
> > >
> > > Jon
> >
> > Well, it seems that we have two contenders here: DokuWiki versus TWiki
> > as possible engines for our R Wiki. So, I did a comparison of the two
> > engines. Here is a summary, and the details come hereunder:
> >
> > TWiki offers certainly more features than DokuWiki. Among those that are
> > important in our context:
> > - Statistics: Twiki offers statistics about orphaned pages, most/least
> > visited pages, recent visitors, etc., while DokuWiki offers only a list
> > of recent changes. Note that there is a "stats" plugin in development
> > for DokuWiki that tends to fill the gap (see:
> > http://wiki.splitbrain.org/plugin:stats). Twiki wins.
> >
> > - Formatting: Twiki allows for row spanning in table and for defining
> > custom styles. However, DokuWiki allows right-to-left writting and
> > footnotes that Twiki does not (all the rest could be added through
> > plugins in one of the two engines, if needed). So, no clear winner here.
> >
> > - Media revision/editing: DokuWiki allows only to add final versions of
> > images and other media. TWiki is more flexible *but* what about the
> > explosion of disk space used on the server with these additional
> > features??? [personally, I think this is a point *against* Twiki, unless
> > one can disable it!]. Twiki looses because of too much features?!
> >
> > - Interface and style: DokuWiki is neat, intuitive and easier to use, in
> > comparison to TWiki (well, this is a personal rating). This is a crucial
> > point: remember that we want a maximum number of R users on the Wiki. If
> > navigation or page edition is too difficult, it will discourage many
> > potential users. DokuWiki wins (but is it really impartial?)
> >
> > - Ease of installation: DokuWiki appears simpler (only need Apache +
> > PHP). Whatever the installer, TWiki requires to install a lot more
> > stuff. Not much a concern for the server (because this is done once and
> > we have at least one knowledgeable people in the group), but what about
> > packaging local versions of the Wiki that everyone could run on its own
> > computer, deconnected from the Internet? DokuWiki wins, thus.
> >
> > - The rest is, I think, details (PHP versus Perl, RCS or custom revision
> > handling, links to sisterwiki, export in PDF, WYSIWYG edition, revision
> >   diffs between any version, etc...).
> >
> > So, my own conclusion: despite TWiki is a very powerful Wiki engine, I
> > still prefer Dokuwiki. I will continue to work on my customized DokuWiki
> > engine as a prototype for our R Wiki site. If someone else wants to
> > start experiments with TWiki, I would be fine to reconsider the
> > comparison on the basis of the two prototypes (but remember that you
> > need to customize Twiki in order to offer something like R syntax
> > coloring, nice equation rendering from the LaTeX definition in the .Rd
> > files, etc. I am already two week ahead with the customization I have
> > already done on DokuWiki ;-).
> > Best,
> >
> > Philippe Grosjean
> >
> > === Here is the detailed comparison ================================
> >
> > A comparison between DokuWiki and TWiki, using http://www.wikimatrix.org
> > gives (I outline only the differences):
> >
> >   * Engine: DokuWiki = PHP, TWiki = Perl
> >     Comment: this is personal, but I find PHP very intuitive... and can
> > hardly read any perl code
> >
> >   * Page storage: DokuWiki = plain text files, TWiki = RCS/Plain text
> > files.
> >    Comment: I think plain text files is better than using a database,
> > because it is easier to access from, let's say, an external R (recall
> > that one idea is to change a little bit the Wikik syntax to embed it is
> > R comments, so that a Wiki page could be sourced directly using
> > source(). So, both are fine here. Twiki uses a regular RCS for saving
> > versions of documents, while DokuWiki uses its own mechanism.
> >
> >   * Requirements: DokuWiki = Apache + PHP, TWiki = a lot more.
> >     Comment: installation seems to be simplified in TWiki 0.4, and at
> > least one knowledgeable people in our group (Jonathan Baron). So, not
> > much of a problem?
> >
> >   * Host Blocking: with a plugin in TWiki, not in DokuWiki
> >
> >   * Revision diffs: DokuWiki = to current page, TWiki = between all
> >     Comment: personally, I consider any revision diff to another page
> > than the current one as a useless gadget.
> >
> >   * Right-to-Left support: Yes in DokuWiki, No in Twiki
> >     Comment: should we propose sections in other languages, this could
> > be important for our eastern friends!
> >
> >   * Page redirection: Yes in Twiki, No in DokuWiki
> >     Comment: ??? Since page redirection can be programmed with two
> > lines of HTML or JavaScript and since DokuWiki supports writting of HTML
> > embedded in Wiki pages, I don't understand why this is not possible in
> > DokuWiki (may be not built-in,... but still possible if needed!)
> >
> >   * Links to SisterWiki: Yes in Twiki, No in DokuWiki
> >     Comment: a link to sisterwiki is an automatic link to a page with
> > the same name in another wiki site!!!??? I really don't see how useful
> > this could be in our context!
> >
> >   * Tables: Dokuwiki = simple, TWiki = simple + complex
> >     Comment: after looking at the table syntax in both engines, it
> > appears that the only difference is "row spanning": in TWiki, you can
> > make a cell spanning on multiple table rows, while you cannot do it with
> > DokuWiki (in both cases, you can span a cell on multiple columns, define
> > header style, align left/center/right very easily, etc.).
> >
> >   * Footnotes: Yes in DokuWiki, No in TWiki
> >
> >   * Custom styles and FAQ tags: No in DokuWiki, Yes in Twiki
> >
> >   * WYSIWYG Editing: No in DokuWiki, optional in TWiki
> >     Comment: usually very slow (not tested in this case). The wikiwyg
> > program in development will allow WYSIWYG editing in any Wiki engine
> > very soon. So, not much a key point, I think.
> >
> >   * Statistics: TWiki is more exhansitive: DokuWiki proposes only a
> > list of recent changes. TWiki adds orphaned pages, most/least popular,
> > recent visitors and analysis. This is a good point in favor of TWiki,
> > certainly!
> >
> >   * PDF export: No in DokuWiki, Yes in TWiki
> >     Comment: it is vital to export parts of our Wiki in PDF. DokuWiki
> > proposes solutions (there is a page dedicated to this, but I don't
> > remeber where). Also, I consider that existing feature in Wiki engines
> > is not enough because they export one page at a time, with link to
> > external wiki pages. We certainly want to export a whole namespace, or a
> > given list of wiki pages into a compiled PDF manual with links inside
> > the manual for related pages. As fas as I know, no Wiki engine does that
> > yet. I don't know for TWiki, but I have already look at DokuWiki and it
> > is rather flexible in the way exportations are defined. So, it is
> > possible to program such a feature in the future if really needed.
> >
> >   * Media revisions/image editing/media search: No in DokuWiki, Yes in
> > TWiki
> >   Comment: personally, this is really a point *against* TWiki. Media
> > (images, videos, sounds) take a lot of memory. I cannot imagine to keep
> > the various versions of such media or other manipulation on large Wikis
> > without exploding the disk space on the server required to store all the
> > info (+ the backups). So, to summarize: saving an unlimited number of
> > version for text documents: YES, doing the same for images: NO! Remember
> > that our Wiki will start with: something like 3000+ pages of online help
> > for all functions in CRAN & Bioconductor, 500+ pages for all packages,
> > 1500+ pages from converting "Statistics for R" + "Rtips" + "R Tcltk
> > examples" (Statistics for R is already 1058 pages in PDF format)! So,
> > this is going to be a very large Wiki!
> >
> >   * Aligning text and text indentation: Yes in Twiki, No in DokuWiki
> >   Comment: well, if needed, there are plugins for that in DokuWiki (not
> > correct in the wikimatrix table).
> >
> >   * Ease of use (not in wikimatrix). This is something rather personal,
> > but I have tried to navigate in TWiki and to figure out how I can find
> > pages, create new pages, come back to previous ones, edit pages, etc.
> > ... and I find all this much less intuitive than in DokuWiki. Where is
> > the simple "search" form? I see only a "jump" one, and obviously, you
> > must type the name of a page, not some text to serach for in all pages.
> >  There is no indication of the previous pages I visited to come back
> > rapidly to them (a feature called "breadcrumbs" in DokuWiki, see
> > http://wiki.splitbrain.org/wiki:breadcrumbs), the table of content in
> > TWiki in on top of the page, while it is conveniently in a box at right
> > in DokuWiki. This is just to cite a few...
> >
> >   * Presentation: still very personal... but I really love the DokuWiki
> > style. In comparison, TWiki one is too classical and boring. Of course,
> > it is still possible to change the CSS file and customize the style.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>