Bob, Thanks for that pointer to the cheaper version of SAS. I was unaware of it. That could be a good option for students whose employers are paying, or who have a sponsor for my course, though $200 per annum is still expensive. SAS is obviously responding the competition, but with annual licencing, still have not got it right. A At 12:16 AM 12/08/2007, you wrote: >These things DO get complicated! I have taken some heat from time to >time for picking Data Desk here from folks who have considered a >couple of the dozens of factors I took into account. Hope you find a >solution! > >PS: Do you know about > >"The SAS Learning Edition is an inexpensive version of SAS with an >impressive array of features from SAS Base, SAS/STAT, SAS/GRAPH, >SAS/QC, SAS/ETS and SAS Enterprise Guide. Some of the included PROCS >are MIXED, GENMOD, ARIMA, GLM, REG, LOGISTIC, and PHREG. See the SAS >website for more information. SAS/LE will read datasets of any size, >but will only process the first 1,500 observations. There is no >limitation on the number of variables." > > > Bob, > > > > Minitab has come a long way. I was pleasantly surprised by the table > > you referred to. I would still like to see a table comparing it with > > SAS or R though. I probably would not stand up that well. Also the > > Fisheries people that have funded me use R or SAS, and the public > > service over here is pretty much wedded to SAS. I do not know of any > > graduate employer here that uses Minitab in the workplace -- it is > > pretty important to have graduates with competency in something that > > will have them up and running when they enter the workplace. > > > > So really the choice for me is (a) Stick with SAS and fight out the > > licencing arrangements with a large and immovable bureaucracy, or (b) > > Run with R or (c) a mixture of both. > > > > As for the command line side of things, I like to have the students > > learn the programming first, then move to the menu driven system > > second if they choose to. I am not a big fan of menu driven stuff, as > > it can lead to a bit of a black-box mentality. I suppose that is just > > a matter of choice. > > > > Thanks for your comments, > > > > Arthur > > > > > > > > At 09:23 AM 11/08/2007, you wrote: > > > > >Minitab has come a long way since it was just for teaching an > > >intro. course. Check > > > > > > http://www.minitab.com/products/Minitab/compare.aspx > > > > > >But I realize this may not be the exact mix of features you need. > > >(There are at least two macro languages for extending it but activity > > >seems to have died down on the old one (simple scripting) and the new > > >one never seems to have caught on. But it's there.) > > > > > >I am not exactly sure what your issues are with a GUI. There are GUI > > >interfaces for R and a free student version of S-Plus (a commercial > > >inplementation of the same language as R) that keep a command history > > >so you can use the GUI as a way to get students started quickly and > > >then gradually move them to the command line. (Most of my students in > > >my last years in the classroom had never SEEN a command line;-) With > > >Minitab I never cared whether they used the command line or the menus > > >though I used the command line 90% of the time. It WAS a big > > >advantage that even if the student uses the menus you can set Minitab > > >so that corresponding commands appear in the output. That was a big > > >help to me in debugging where students went wrong. > > > > > >Stata has been growing gradually and quietly. It's pretty powerful > > >and has a command line. > > > > > > > Bob, > > > > > > > > I looked at Minitab a ways back, and it sort of stops dead in terms > > > > of students developing beyond what I teach when they move into the > > > > subjects that follow. I was hoping not to have them swapping and > > > > changing software, but maybe that would be a good thing? > > > > > > > > Thanks for the advice, > > > > > > > > Arthur > > > > > > > > At 07:51 AM 11/08/2007, you wrote: > > > > > > > > >It certainly does not look like you would need SAS or R for the topics > > > > >covered, which could easily be done with Minitab, which has a command > > > > >line available -- one far simpler than R's. And it's a lot cheaper > > > > >than SAS! > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > > > Great to discover this mailing list. I have been running > a course in > > > > > > environmental statistics using SAS for some years now, but have > > > > > > recently moved to delivering the material online or in mixed mode > > > > > > delivery. It would not come as a surprise to you as R > users that the > > > > > > SAS licencing is getting in the way of this, as the > students know no > > > > > > national boundaries, and distributing SAS across the globe is > > > problematic. > > > > > > > > > > > > I am therefore exploring switching to R. I do so with some > > > > > > trepidation, as I chose SAS in part because the code is > intelligible > > > > > > to novice programmers (I use the command line approach for > > > > > > pedagogical reasons) whereas R syntax is likely to > present a greater > > > > > > obstacle to learning for budding environmental > scientists. Can anyone > > > > > > comment on their experiences with this? Are SAS and SPSS more > > > > > > suitable for undergraduate levels, and R better introduced at > > > > > > graduate level? Should I not go there for the undergrads? > Any tricks > > > > > > of the trade? > > > > > > > > > > > > My course is on http://ecology.lamsinternational.com/ and you will > > > > > > note that there is an Introductory R module there that I > have not yet > > > > > > trialed on a class -- plan to in February. If you want to > poke around > > > > > > in there, the enrolment key is Fisher. > > > > > > > > > > > > All the best, > > > > > > > > > > > > Arthur > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > R-sig-teaching@r-project.org mailing list > > > > > > https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-sig-teaching > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______ > > > > >| ^ | > > > > >| / Robert W. Hayden > > > > >| | in the old library > > > > >| | 212 Main Street > > > > >| / P. O. Box 450 > > > > >| | ^ North Troy, VT 05859 > > > > >L__L (802) 988-2587 > > > > > http://statland.org/ > > > > >Map of VT bob@statland.org > > > > > > > > > >Communications sent to Plymouth State will not reach me. > > > > > > > > ========================================================== > > > > Arthur Georges, Professor in Applied Ecology > > > > Institute for Applied Ecology and > > > > School of Resource, Environmental and Heritage Sciences > > > > Building 3, University of Canberra ACT 2601 AUSTRALIA > > > > Tel : (02)6201 5786 Fax: (02)62015305 Mobile: 0418 866741 > > > > Email: georges@aerg.canberra.edu.au > > > > WWW: http://aerg.canberra.edu.au/staff/georges/ > > > > Reprints: http://aerg.canberra.edu.au/cgi-bin/pubs.cgi?target=G1 > > > > ========================================================== > > > > Australian Government Higher Education Registered Provider > CRICOS: #00212K > > > > > > > > [[alternative HTML version deleted]] > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > R-sig-teaching@r-project.org mailing list > > > > https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-sig-teaching > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______ > > >| ^ | > > >| / Robert W. Hayden > > >| | in the old library > > >| | 212 Main Street > > >| / P. O. Box 450 > > >| | ^ North Troy, VT 05859 > > >L__L (802) 988-2587 > > > http://statland.org/ > > >Map of VT bob@statland.org > > > > > >Communications sent to Plymouth State will not reach me. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > R-sig-teaching@r-project.org mailing list > > https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-sig-teaching > > > > > > _______ >| ^ | >| / Robert W. Hayden >| | in the old library >| | 212 Main Street >| / P. O. Box 450 >| | ^ North Troy, VT 05859 >L__L (802) 988-2587 > http://statland.org/ >Map of VT bob@statland.org > >Communications sent to Plymouth State will not reach me. ========================================================== Arthur Georges, Professor in Applied Ecology Institute for Applied Ecology and School of Resource, Environmental and Heritage Sciences Building 3, University of Canberra ACT 2601 AUSTRALIA Tel : (02)6201 5786 Fax: (02)62015305 Mobile: 0418 866741 Email: georges@aerg.canberra.edu.au WWW: http://aerg.canberra.edu.au/staff/georges/ Reprints: http://aerg.canberra.edu.au/cgi-bin/pubs.cgi?target=G1 ========================================================== Australian Government Higher Education Registered Provider CRICOS: #00212K [[alternative HTML version deleted]]