[R-sig-ME] Modelling proportion data in lme4
rdiaz02 at gmail.com
Sat Apr 1 10:19:33 CEST 2017
On Thu, 30-03-2017, at 09:41, Adriana De Palma <A.De-Palma at nhm.ac.uk> wrote:
> Dear all,
> I'd be really grateful if someone could advise on the following issue I've come across.
> I have proportion data (non-integer, bounded between 0 and 1) as my
Do you actually have some 0s? Most of the rest of my answer assumes you do.
> response variable, in a model that requires nested random effects and
> weights, which makes lme4 the ideal choice. Using lme4 with a binomial
You might want to take a look at:
and this R-help question (referred from the above questions, e.g. http://stats.stackexchange.com/a/81347):
where using a Tweedie model is suggested.
The cplm CRAN package, by W. Zhang:
will fit mixed-effects Tweedies.
I'd suggesting checking the vignetted of the cplm package, as well as
and Dunn and Smyth's 2005 paper, which contains examples that use the
Tweedie distribution, as well as several references in the literature where
these models have been used:
Take all of this advice with a grain (or two) of salt, but in somewhat
similar cases, and when I had a structure of replicates that allowed me to
examine the relationship between mean and variance in the response, I have
used it to help me decide whether a Tweedie was, or not, a reasonable
choice compared to other options; for instance, with the Tweedie model we'd
expect to see a linear slope between log(variance) and log(mean), with the
slope, p, being the exponent in the relationship V(mu) = mu^p (see, e.g.,
Figure 3 in the paper by Dunn and Smyth).
> error structure and logit link seems to produce reasonable (and realistic
> looking) results, and the residual plots look good. However, it warns me
> that the error structure expects integer data, and I don't know whether
> this approach is doing what I think (and hope) that it is doing. I have
> tried to validate the lme4 results in the following ways:
> 1. Running the same method (binomial error structure and logit link with
> the proportions as the response variable) with glmmADMB. This produces
> very different results (they are completely unrealistic, e.g. predicted
> proportion of 2.16e-34).
> 2. Using beta regression with glmmADMB. This seems to work and produce
> results that are on the same scale, but not that close to those of lme4.
> 3. Running an lme4 model with normal errors (lmer), after
> logit-transforming the response variable. This again gives quite
> different results to the lme4 model with binomial error structure and
> logit link (and the behaviour of the residuals is not ideal).
> Since these all give different results, it's hard to tell whether the
> lme4 method I've used is giving the 'right' answer. I would be really
> grateful for any advice. Is lme4 correctly analysing the proportion data
> when a binomial error structure and logit link are specified?
> Additional note: the proportion data are compositional similarity
> measurements (Jaccard assymetric abundance-based compositional
> similarity), so technically there is a numerator and denominator
> (numerator = abundance of species in Site 1 that are also present in Site
> 2; denominator = abundance of all species in Site 1). I've been exploring
> different weights options, but they generally include the denominator.
A couple of comments here:
1. I am not sure those proportion data can always be modelled as binomial.
Is the numerator a quantity we can think of as arising from a number of
independent trials, where the denominator is that number of independent
2. You might consider modeling the numerator using the denominator not as
denominator but as a covariate. This has the advantage of allowing you to
examine different possible relationships such as
Numerator ~ Denominator + other stuff
Numerator ~ poly(Denominator, 2) + other stuff
Numerator ~ bs(Denominator) + other stuff
and just generally things like
Numerator ~ some_function_of(Denominator, some_other_covariates)
Numerator ~ poly(Denominator, 2) * some_covariate
When you do
Numerator/Denominator ~ other stuff
you are committing yourself to one particular form of that relationship
(which might not be easy to reason about).
> Many thanks in advance,
> Adriana De Palma
> PREDICTS Postdoctoral Research Assistant
> Natural History Museum
> South Kensington
> Web: The Purvis Lab<http://www.bio.ic.ac.uk/research/apurvis/ajpurvis.htm> | PREDICTS<predicts.org.uk>
> [[alternative HTML version deleted]]
> R-sig-mixed-models at r-project.org mailing list
Department of Biochemistry, Lab B-25
Facultad de Medicina
Universidad Autónoma de Madrid
Arzobispo Morcillo, 4
Email: rdiaz02 at gmail.com
ramon.diaz at iib.uam.es
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