Hadley,

Thank you for posting this. I think the danger is that novices (and I'm not
far removed from that category) can be intimidated by R, but more so by R
experts that make people AFRAID to ask questions. The danger is that these
intimidating R experts could turn people away from using R; at the very
least, novices could end up wasting valuable time trying to complete their
projects because they can't get the help they are searching for.

Nothing is gained by punishing people over their internet 'manners'…

Tom

On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 1:47 PM, Hadley Wickham <hadley@rice.edu> wrote:

> That assumes:
>
> * Everyone reads the mailing list before making the first posting
>
> * Everyone reads every part of every email.
>
> I'd argue that both assumptions are false. People are particular well
> trained to skip over boilerplate text at the bottom of emails.
>
> I'd suggest an alternative approach is for experts to remember what
> it's like to be a novice, and cultivate an attitude of patience and
> tolerance.  That's about as likely to happen as a mass change in
> behaviour in new users.
>
> Hadley
>
> On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 9:48 AM, John Kane <jrkrideau@inbox.com> wrote:
> > I'd vote for that!
> > It would probably bug the blazes out of experienced users but the time
> savings in getting a newbie to actually supply enough information so that
> someone can, at least, try to answer the question would be well worth it.
> >
> > John Kane
> > Kingston ON Canada
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: gunter.berton@gene.com
> >> Sent: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 07:49:28 -0700
> >> To: jrkrideau@inbox.com
> >> Subject: Re: [R] On Reproducible Code
> >>
> >> I agree and would like to see it placed at the **TOP** of every post.
> >>
> >> -- Bert
> >>
> >> On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 7:11 AM, John Kane <jrkrideau@inbox.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: jim@bitwrit.com.au
> >>>> Sent: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 19:21:36 +1000
> >>>> To: dcarlson@tamu.edu
> >>>> Subject: Re: [R] On Reproducible Code
> >>>>
> >>>> On 07/26/2012 01:50 AM, David L Carlson wrote:
> >>>>> We often refer requesters to the Posting Guide and chide them for not
> >>>>> reading it.
> >>>> >...
> >>>>> I hesitate to sound too optimistic, but there might be some advantage
> >>>>> in
> >>>>> making the statement more prominent and adding a reproducible example
> >>>>> using
> >>>>> dput().
> >>>>>
> >>>> The reponses to some requests for help do seem to get a volley of the
> >>>> "reproducible code" answers. Some, such as:
> >>>>
> >>>> I can't get the answer. PLEASE HELP!!!
> >>>>
> >>>> probably deserve it, but others appear to emerge from the overheated
> >>>> brain of the frustrated noob. With a wonderfully informative name like
> >>>> "dput", it is rather challenging to guess that this function is the
> way
> >>>> to calm the affronted guru with an example of your problem. I am
> >>>> particularly amused by the phrase "reproducible code", which sounds
> >>>> perilously close to the definition of a virus. Perhaps the neglected
> >>>> little message at the bottom of each email (which seems to reproduce
> >>>> itself) might be easier for the uninitiated to understand if it read:
> >>>>
> >>>> Please include the R code that is causing the problem _and_ enough
> data
> >>>> (see the "dput" function) for someone else to run the code and get the
> >>>> same problem.
> >>>>
> >>>> I can remember when I didn't know that there was a "dput" function.
> >>>>
> >>>> Jim
> >>> I can remember spending a lot of time constructing a data set to post
> >>> before someone mentioned ?dput.  Ah, yes, I still have a couple of
> >>> generic ones archived.
> >>>
> >>> I think your wording above makes a lot of sense.
> >>>
> >>> ____________________________________________________________
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> >>>
> >>> ______________________________________________
> >>> R-help@r-project.org mailing list
> >>> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
> >>> PLEASE do read the posting guide
> >>> http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
> >>> and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >>
> >> Bert Gunter
> >> Genentech Nonclinical Biostatistics
> >>
> >> Internal Contact Info:
> >> Phone: 467-7374
> >> Website:
> >>
> http://pharmadevelopment.roche.com/index/pdb/pdb-functional-groups/pdb-biostatistics/pdb-ncb-home.htm
> >
> > ____________________________________________________________
> > FREE 3D EARTH SCREENSAVER - Watch the Earth right on your desktop!
> >
> > ______________________________________________
> > R-help@r-project.org mailing list
> > https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
> > PLEASE do read the posting guide
> http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
> > and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
>
>
>
> --
> Assistant Professor / Dobelman Family Junior Chair
> Department of Statistics / Rice University
> http://had.co.nz/
>
> ______________________________________________
> R-help@r-project.org mailing list
> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
> PLEASE do read the posting guide
> http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
> and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
>



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