[R] Logical inconsistency

[Bernardo Rangel Tura]

Hi Kenn,

Well I think your use or round isn't optimal solution. If you using 

round(x,1)-round(x,1) you create 2 problems

First: error propagation because you make 2 round.

Second: you don't using "guard digits" approach.

The optimal use of round is using in last calculation:

Look this

> round(8.8,1)-round(7.8,1)>1
[1] TRUE
> round(8.8-7.8,1)>1
[1] FALSE
> round(8.8-7.8,1)==1
[1] TRUE

Bernardo Rangel Tura, M.D,MPH,Ph.D
National Institute of Cardiology
Brazil

---------- Original Message -----------
From: "Kenn Konstabel" <lebatsnok at gmail.com>
To: "emma jane" <emma_me_jane at yahoo.com>
Cc: R help <R-help at stat.math.ethz.ch>
Sent: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 11:53:01 +0200
Subject: Re: [R] Logical inconsistency

> Rounding can do no good because....
> 
> round(8.8,1)-round(7.8,1)>1
> # still TRUE
> round(8.8)-round(7.7)>1
> # FALSE
> 
> What you might do is compute a-b-1 and compare it to a very small number:
> 
> (8.8-7.8-1) < 1e-10
> # TRUE
> 
> K
> 
> On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 11:47 AM, emma jane <emma_me_jane at yahoo.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> > Thanks Greg, that does make sense.  And I've solved the problem by
> > rounding the variables before taking the difference between them.
> >
> > Thanks to all who replied.
> >
> > Emma JaneÂ
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Greg Snow <Greg.Snow at imail.org>
> >
> > .com.br>; Wacek Kusnierczyk <Waclaw.Marcin.Kusnierczyk at idi.ntnu.no>; Chuck
> > Cleland <ccleland at optonline.net>
> > Cc: R help <R-help at stat.math.ethz.ch>
> > Sent: Tuesday, 9 December, 2008 16:30:08
> > Subject: RE: [R] Logical inconsistency
> >
> > Some (possibly all) of those numbers cannot be represented exactly, so
> > there is a chance of round off error whenever you do some arithmetic,
> > sometimes the errors cancel out, sometimes they don't.  Consider:
> >
> > > print(8.3-7.3, digits=20)
> > [1] 1.000000000000001
> > > print(11.3-10.3, digits=20)
> > [1] 1
> >
> > So in the first case the rounding error gives a value that is slightly
> > greater than 1, so the greater than test returns true (if you round the
> > result before comparing to 1, then it will return false).  In the second
> > case the uncertainties cancelled out so that you get exactly 1 which is not
> > greater than 1 an so the comparison returns false.
> >
> > Hope this helps,
> >
> > --
> > Gregory (Greg) L. Snow Ph.D.
> > Statistical Data Center
> > Intermountain Healthcare
> > greg.snow at imail.org
> > 801.408.8111
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: r-help-bounces at r-project.org [mailto:r-help-bounces at r-
> > > project.org] On Behalf Of emma jane
> > > Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 7:02 AM
> > > To: Bernardo Rangel Tura; Wacek Kusnierczyk; Chuck Cleland
> > > Cc: R help
> > > Subject: Re: [R] Logical inconsistency
> > >
> > > Many thanks for your help, perhaps I should have set my query in
> > > context .... !
> > >
> > > I'm simply calculating an indicator variable [0,1] based on the whether
> > > the difference between two measured variables is > 1 or <=1.
> > >
> > > I understand the FAQ about floating point arithmetic, but am still
> > > puzzled that it only apparently applies to certain elements, as
> > > follows:
> > >
> > > 8.8 - 7.8 > 1
> > > > TRUE
> > >
> > > 8.3 - 7.3 > 1
> > > > TRUE
> > >
> > > However,
> > >
> > > 10.2 - 9.2 > 1
> > > >FALSE
> > >
> > > 11.3 - 10.3>1
> > > >Â FALSE
> > >
> > > Emma Jane
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Bernardo Rangel Tura <tura at centroin.com.br>
> > > To: Wacek Kusnierczyk <Waclaw.Marcin.Kusnierczyk at idi.ntnu.no>
> > > Cc: R help <R-help at stat.math.ethz.ch>
> > > Sent: Saturday, 6 December, 2008 10:00:48
> > > Subject: Re: [R] Logical inconsistency
> > >
> > > On Fri, 2008-12-05 at 14:18 +0100, Wacek Kusnierczyk wrote:
> > > > Berwin A Turlach wrote:
> > > > > Dear Emma,
> > > > >
> > > > > On Fri, 5 Dec 2008 04:23:53 -0800 (PST)
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >> Please could someone kindly explain the following inconsistencies
> > > > >> I've discovered__when performing logical calculations in R:
> > > > >>
> > > > >> 8.8 - 7.8 > 1
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> TRUE
> > > > >>>
> > > > >> 8.3 - 7.3 > 1
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> TRUE
> > > > >>>
> > > > >
> > > > > Gladly:Â  FAQ 7.31
> > > > > http://cran.at.r-project.org/doc/FAQ/R-FAQ.html#Why-doesn_0027t-R-
> > > th
> > > > > ink-these-numbers-are-equal_003f
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > well, this answer the question only partially.  this explains why a
> > > > system with finite precision arithmetic, such as r, will fail to be
> > > > logically correct in certain cases.  it does not explain why r, a
> > > > language said to isolate a user from the underlying implementational
> > > > choices, would have to fail this way.
> > > >
> > > > there is, in principle, no problem in having a high-level language
> > > > perform the computation in a logically consistent way.  for example,
> > > > bc is an "arbitrary precision calculator language", and has no
> > > problem
> > > > with examples as the above:
> > > >
> > > > bc <<< "8.8 - 7.8 > 1"
> > > > # 0, meaning 'no'
> > > >
> > > > bc <<< "8.3 - 7.3 > 1"
> > > > # 0, meaning 'no'
> > > >
> > > > bc <<< "8.8 - 7.8 == 1"
> > > > # 1, meaning 'yes'
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > the fact that r (and many others, including matlab and sage, perhaps
> > > > not
> > > > mathematica) does not perform logically here is a consequence of its
> > > > implementation of floating point arithmetic.
> > > >
> > > > the faq you were pointed to, and its referring to the goldberg's
> > > > article, show that r does not successfully isolate a user from
> > > details
> > > > of the lower-level implementation.
> > > >
> > > > vQ
> > >
> > > Well, first of all for 8.-7.3 is not equal to 1 [for computers]
> > >
> > > > 8.3-7.3-1
> > > [1] 8.881784e-16
> > >
> > > But if you use only one digit precision
> > >
> > > > round(8.3-7.3,1)-1
> > > [1] 0
> > > > round(8.3-7.3,1)-1>0
> > > [1] FALSE
> > > > round(8.3-7.3,1)==1
> > > [1] TRUE
> > >
> > >
> > > So the problem is the code write and no the software
> > >
> > > --
> > > Bernardo Rangel Tura, M.D,MPH,Ph.D
> > > National Institute of Cardiology
> > > Brazil
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Â  Â  Â  Â  [[alternative HTML version deleted]]
> >
> >
> >
> >        [[alternative HTML version deleted]]
> >
> >
> > ______________________________________________
> > R-help at r-project.org mailing list
> > https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help
> > PLEASE do read the posting guide
> > http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
> > and provide commented, minimal, self-contained, reproducible code.
> >
> >
> 
> 	[[alternative HTML version deleted]]
------- End of Original Message -------