[Rd] [External] Re: 1954 from NA
iuke-tier@ey m@iii@g oii uiow@@edu
iuke-tier@ey m@iii@g oii uiow@@edu
Tue May 25 15:14:38 CEST 2021
On Tue, 25 May 2021, Adrian Dușa wrote:
> Dear Avi,
>
> Thank you so much for the extended messages, I read them carefully.
> While partially offering a solution (I've already been there), it creates
> additional work for the user, and some of that is unnecessary.
>
> What I am trying to achieve is best described in this draft vignette:
>
> devtools::install_github("dusadrian/mixed")
> vignette("mixed")
>
> Once a value is declared to be missing, the user should not do anything
> else about it. Despite being present, the value should automatically be
> treated as missing by the software. That is the way it's done in all major
> statistical packages like SAS, Stata and even SPSS.
>
> My end goal is to make R attractive for my faculty peers (and beyond),
> almost all of whom are massively using SPSS and sometimes Stata. But in
> order to convince them to (finally) make the switch, I need to provide
> similar functionality, not additional work.
>
> Re. your first part of the message, I am definitely not trying to change
> the R internals. The NA will still be NA, exactly as currently defined.
> My initial proposal was based on the observation that the 1954 payload was
> stored as an unsigned int (thus occupying 32 bits) when it is obvious it
> doesn't need more than 16. That was the only proposed modification, and
> everything else stays the same.
>
> I now learned, thanks to all contributors in this list, that building
> something around that payload is risky because we do not know exactly what
> the compilers will do. One possible solution that I can think of, while
> (still) maintaining the current functionality around the NA, is to use a
> different high word for the NA that would not trigger compilation issues.
> But I have absolutely no idea what that implies for the other inner
> workings of R.
>
> I very much trust the R core will eventually find a robust solution,
> they've solved much more complicated problems than this. I just hope the
> current thread will push the idea of tagged NAs on the table, for when they
> will discuss this.
>
> Once that will be solved, and despite the current advice discouraging this
> route, I believe tagging NAs is a valuable idea that should not be
> discarded.
Yes, it should be discarded.
You can of course do what you like in code you keep to yourself. But
please do not distribute code that does this. via CRAN or any other
means. It will only create problems for those maintaining R.
> After all, the NA is nothing but a tagged NaN.
And we are now paying a price for what was, in hindsight, an
unfortunate decision.
Best,
luke
> All the best,
> Adrian
>
>
> On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 7:05 AM Avi Gross via R-devel <r-devel using r-project.org>
> wrote:
>
>> I was thinking about how one does things in a language that is properly
>> object-oriented versus R that makes various half-assed attempts at being
>> such.
>>
>> Clearly in some such languages you can make an object that is a wrapper
>> that allows you to save an item that is the main payload as well as
>> anything else you want. You might need a way to convince everything else to
>> allow you to make things like lists and vectors and other collections of
>> the objects and perhaps automatically unbox them for many purposes. As an
>> example in a language like Python, you might provide methods so that adding
>> A and B actually gets the value out of A and/or B and adds them properly.
>> But there may be too many edge cases to handle and some software may not
>> pay attention to what you want including some libraries written in other
>> languages.
>>
>> I mention Python for the odd reason that it is now possible to combine
>> Python and R in the same program and sort of switch back and forth between
>> data representations. This may provide some openings for preserving and
>> accessing metadata when needed.
>>
>> Realistically, if R was being designed from scratch TODAY, many things
>> might be done differently. But I recall it being developed at Bell Labs for
>> purposes where it was sort of revolutionary at the time (back when it was
>> S) and designed to do things in a vectorized way and probably primarily for
>> the kinds of scientific and mathematical operations where a single NA (of
>> several types depending on the data) was enough when augmented by a few
>> things like a Nan and Inf and -Inf. I doubt they seriously saw a need for
>> an unlimited number of NA that were all the same AND also all different
>> that they felt had to be built-in. As noted, had they had a reason to make
>> it fully object-oriented too and made the base types such as integer into
>> full-fledged objects with room for additional metadata, then things may be
>> different. I note I have seen languages which have both a data type called
>> integer as lower case and Integer as upper case. One of them is regularly
>> boxed and unboxed automagically when used in a context that needs the
>> other. As far as efficiency goes, this invisibly adds many steps. So do
>> languages that sometimes take a variable that is a pointer and invisibly
>> reference it to provide the underlying field rather than make you do extra
>> typing and so on.
>>
>> So is there any reason only an NA should have such meta-data? Why not have
>> reasons associated with Inf stating it was an Inf because you asked for one
>> or the result of a calculation such as dividing by Zero (albeit maybe that
>> might be a NaN) and so on. Maybe I could annotate integers with whether
>> they are prime or even versus odd or a factor of 144 or anything else I
>> can imagine. But at some point, the overhead from allowing all this can
>> become substantial. I was amused at how python allows a function to be
>> annotated including by itself since it is an object. So it can store such
>> metadata perhaps in an attached dictionary so a complex costly calculation
>> can have the results cached and when you ask for the same thing in the same
>> session, it checks if it has done it and just returns the result in linear
>> time. But after a while, how many cached results can there be?
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: R-devel <r-devel-bounces using r-project.org> On Behalf Of
>> luke-tierney using uiowa.edu
>> Sent: Monday, May 24, 2021 9:15 AM
>> To: Adrian Dușa <dusa.adrian using unibuc.ro>
>> Cc: Greg Minshall <minshall using umich.edu>; r-devel <r-devel using r-project.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Rd] [External] Re: 1954 from NA
>>
>> On Mon, 24 May 2021, Adrian Dușa wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, May 24, 2021 at 2:11 PM Greg Minshall <minshall using umich.edu>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> [...]
>>>> if you have 500 columns of possibly-NA'd variables, you could have
>>>> one column of 500 "bits", where each bit has one of N values, N being
>>>> the number of explanations the corresponding column has for why the
>>>> NA exists.
>>>>
>>
>> PLEASE DO NOT DO THIS!
>>
>> It will not work reliably, as has been explained to you ad nauseam in this
>> thread.
>>
>> If you distribute code that does this it will only lead to bug reports on
>> R that will waste R-core time.
>>
>> As Alex explained, you can use attributes for this. If you need operations
>> to preserve attributes across subsetting you can define subsetting methods
>> that do that.
>>
>> If you are dead set on doing something in C you can try to develop an
>> ALTREP class that provides augmented missing value information.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> luke
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> The mere thought of implementing something like that gives me shivers.
>>> Not to mention such a solution should also be robust when subsetting,
>>> splitting, column and row binding, etc. and everything can be lost if
>>> the user deletes that particular column without realising its importance.
>>>
>>> Social science datasets are much more alive and complex than one might
>>> first think: there are multi-wave studies with tens of countries, and
>>> aggregating such data is already a complex process to add even more
>>> complexity on top of that.
>>>
>>> As undocumented as they may be, or even subject to change, I think the
>>> R internals are much more reliable that this.
>>>
>>> Best wishes,
>>> Adrian
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Luke Tierney
>> Ralph E. Wareham Professor of Mathematical Sciences
>> University of Iowa Phone: 319-335-3386
>> Department of Statistics and Fax: 319-335-3017
>> Actuarial Science
>> 241 Schaeffer Hall email: luke-tierney using uiowa.edu
>> Iowa City, IA 52242 WWW: http://www.stat.uiowa.edu
>> ______________________________________________
>> R-devel using r-project.org mailing list
>> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-devel
>>
>> ______________________________________________
>> R-devel using r-project.org mailing list
>> https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-devel
>>
>
>
>
--
Luke Tierney
Ralph E. Wareham Professor of Mathematical Sciences
University of Iowa Phone: 319-335-3386
Department of Statistics and Fax: 319-335-3017
Actuarial Science
241 Schaeffer Hall email: luke-tierney using uiowa.edu
Iowa City, IA 52242 WWW: http://www.stat.uiowa.edu
More information about the R-devel
mailing list